pskeens
This thread is exactly what the title implies. I was at Sam Ash on the West Coast this week and was talking with a guy there. We were talking about controllers and software. We got to talking about the NS6 and I told him I hate the interface of ITCH it blows. He asked what I was using and told him VDJ. Immediately he laughed and said "Wow, ITCH is so much more stable than that buggy thing". I told him that its not buggy, its stable and have never had a problem with it. He acted surprised or he didn't believe me one. He says you must be the only one.
People do not know VDJ and its capabilities! I left it at that because this guy has given me good deals and didn't want to break that, but it irritated me that people speak and do not know the facts!
People do not know VDJ and its capabilities! I left it at that because this guy has given me good deals and didn't want to break that, but it irritated me that people speak and do not know the facts!
发表时间 Fri 15 Jul 11 @ 9:26 pm
jboerlage
Yeah,
Atomix has got a big marketing challenge to get their product taken seriously. Both Traktor and Itch have settled themselves much better in the 'professional market' and not particulary with features but product positioning.
Take Native Instruments, their software synths are since many years standard gear for any producer/DJ. Traktor itself was first marketed by Steinberg, maker of the legendary sequencer Cubase, before it became a NI product. So looking at the Traktor the whole thing breaths that its made with professional musicians and DJ's in mind. Most illustrative to this is the colored waveform that helps you to 'see' the music and instruments. Did you ever hear Atomix speak in musical terms with anything more than the 'technical part' of it ie. beats, pitch and eq?
Than Serato, their strategy is to hook up with top of the bill high end controllers. Itch is default shipped with the NS6, NS7 and Pioneer DDJ-S1. Again, this immediately positions itself into the pro segment.
Now that Virtual DJ, there is nothing really wrong with the product, it works, its very customizable, has good support and a loyal usergroup that contributes to the product itself in the form of plugins and self support.
But.. Just start by puting the websites next to eachother.. NI and Serato have a very professional and corporate look, VDJ seems like something anyone with notepad and paintshop pro can build. Than the product offering itself; five versions of the same product, each stripped down a little differently. That gives the impression of unprofessional directionless thinking (sorry guys). Now open up the hardware page.. featured product.. Hercules?? I do bet that this deal gives them probably a very very nice position in the lower end reaching volumes that the others might be jalouse of, however, this again positions you immediately as 'bedroom DJ product'.
If I were to be Atomix product director, without knowing the financials cause that could change opionion allot, I'd go for a slightly different approach..
- Keep the free version
- Make one basic version
- Keep the OEM deal with low end products for the volumes and ship with the basic version
- Kill all other versions
- Make one pro version:
-> No longer named virtualDJ
-> Marketed seperately as 'Professional variant of VirtualDJ, the mass product'
-> OEMed with at least two TOP segment controllers or better with a rock solid customer build dream controller
-> Innovative features that are positioned as creative tools
-> Very corporate look and feel. You might even wanna reconsider the way skinning works to ensure the professional look and feel
Just my 2cents
Atomix has got a big marketing challenge to get their product taken seriously. Both Traktor and Itch have settled themselves much better in the 'professional market' and not particulary with features but product positioning.
Take Native Instruments, their software synths are since many years standard gear for any producer/DJ. Traktor itself was first marketed by Steinberg, maker of the legendary sequencer Cubase, before it became a NI product. So looking at the Traktor the whole thing breaths that its made with professional musicians and DJ's in mind. Most illustrative to this is the colored waveform that helps you to 'see' the music and instruments. Did you ever hear Atomix speak in musical terms with anything more than the 'technical part' of it ie. beats, pitch and eq?
Than Serato, their strategy is to hook up with top of the bill high end controllers. Itch is default shipped with the NS6, NS7 and Pioneer DDJ-S1. Again, this immediately positions itself into the pro segment.
Now that Virtual DJ, there is nothing really wrong with the product, it works, its very customizable, has good support and a loyal usergroup that contributes to the product itself in the form of plugins and self support.
But.. Just start by puting the websites next to eachother.. NI and Serato have a very professional and corporate look, VDJ seems like something anyone with notepad and paintshop pro can build. Than the product offering itself; five versions of the same product, each stripped down a little differently. That gives the impression of unprofessional directionless thinking (sorry guys). Now open up the hardware page.. featured product.. Hercules?? I do bet that this deal gives them probably a very very nice position in the lower end reaching volumes that the others might be jalouse of, however, this again positions you immediately as 'bedroom DJ product'.
If I were to be Atomix product director, without knowing the financials cause that could change opionion allot, I'd go for a slightly different approach..
- Keep the free version
- Make one basic version
- Keep the OEM deal with low end products for the volumes and ship with the basic version
- Kill all other versions
- Make one pro version:
-> No longer named virtualDJ
-> Marketed seperately as 'Professional variant of VirtualDJ, the mass product'
-> OEMed with at least two TOP segment controllers or better with a rock solid customer build dream controller
-> Innovative features that are positioned as creative tools
-> Very corporate look and feel. You might even wanna reconsider the way skinning works to ensure the professional look and feel
Just my 2cents
发表时间 Sat 16 Jul 11 @ 1:13 am
Charlie Wilson
Lock the forums so you have to have a licence to access them.
发表时间 Sat 16 Jul 11 @ 4:09 am
Rickd423
Charlie Wilson,
I would have 2 disagree with you on that because I made 2 posts in the forum here a year before I bought my Mixtrack pro that came with VDJ & then I upgraded....But I did a lot of research...A lot of asking on this & other forums....Even got a cracked version of VDJ 6...played with it at home for a couple of weeks.....Then I decided that what controller I was gonna buy had 2 come with VDJ....Then guess what, I bought the Pro version....So every No License User is a potential Professional Edition User, or even a Limited Edition User....U never know. So all of the great advice & support that we give the NLU can actually help them with their decsion 2 actually purchase the full version or a controller with the LE version....My .02 cents at least this is how I look at it...
I would have 2 disagree with you on that because I made 2 posts in the forum here a year before I bought my Mixtrack pro that came with VDJ & then I upgraded....But I did a lot of research...A lot of asking on this & other forums....Even got a cracked version of VDJ 6...played with it at home for a couple of weeks.....Then I decided that what controller I was gonna buy had 2 come with VDJ....Then guess what, I bought the Pro version....So every No License User is a potential Professional Edition User, or even a Limited Edition User....U never know. So all of the great advice & support that we give the NLU can actually help them with their decsion 2 actually purchase the full version or a controller with the LE version....My .02 cents at least this is how I look at it...
发表时间 Sat 16 Jul 11 @ 5:03 am
Charlie Wilson
I'm glad you bought pro.
But for every crack head on the forum asking for free skins and stuff just puts the pro's off and turns them to an alternative product.
The odd home user doesn't make a difference.
But for every crack head on the forum asking for free skins and stuff just puts the pro's off and turns them to an alternative product.
The odd home user doesn't make a difference.
发表时间 Sat 16 Jul 11 @ 6:02 am
Dozo10
Stuff and skins i don't mind , BUT the support that an illegal user gets... unbelieveable!
And yes i know it helps some of them in there disission to go legal but the majority is doing just fine with illegal stuff.
Then again , i met in the last 2 months about 18 DJ's of witch i was THE ONLY LEGAL user of aftermarket dj software.(7 of them used VDJ)
When i talked to the dj's about there software they all started laughing: why pay??
This is for kids and bedroom dj's they (Atomix) don't care if i use it ... and i was like ... but .....but....but ...
and then just walked away...
That really makes me think that i am the idiot who is doing it wrong.
And yes i know it helps some of them in there disission to go legal but the majority is doing just fine with illegal stuff.
Then again , i met in the last 2 months about 18 DJ's of witch i was THE ONLY LEGAL user of aftermarket dj software.(7 of them used VDJ)
When i talked to the dj's about there software they all started laughing: why pay??
This is for kids and bedroom dj's they (Atomix) don't care if i use it ... and i was like ... but .....but....but ...
and then just walked away...
That really makes me think that i am the idiot who is doing it wrong.
发表时间 Sat 16 Jul 11 @ 7:00 am
Blulite
im truly sick of seeing people talk trash about vdj. theres a lot of people who try vdj and dont bother to learn the full capabilities of the product.
it seems that people judge vdj by the label or by what others say. whats strange is that people as with most things like to conform to social standards and believe what everyone else says.
i read in a lot of places that traktor is better than vj for this reason and that. yet i find the people stating these things have had very little experience with vdj purely due to them being told its either for kids or for bedrom dj's.
only yesterday did i have to show some guys on the traktor forums that vdj was voted best software overall. a guy asked VDJ or Traktor. and a few traktor guys slated vdj straight away yet one had only used home edition with a mouse and eyboard and the other had migrated to traktor because his controller wasnt supported "apparently".
one guy stated and i quote "come on do you really need to ask? how many pro`s even semi pro`s use vdj?- none. try out the free version its trys to do too much without doing one thing properly! it is for kids its the v-tech of the dj software"
which is a bold statement to make about a software without knowing its full potential.
when i replied to this statement and commented on vdj i got the most mature answer ive ever seen.
"if you bum vdj so much wtf you doin on the NI forum?"
sigh...
its such a shame that vdj gets insulted so much
it seems that people judge vdj by the label or by what others say. whats strange is that people as with most things like to conform to social standards and believe what everyone else says.
i read in a lot of places that traktor is better than vj for this reason and that. yet i find the people stating these things have had very little experience with vdj purely due to them being told its either for kids or for bedrom dj's.
only yesterday did i have to show some guys on the traktor forums that vdj was voted best software overall. a guy asked VDJ or Traktor. and a few traktor guys slated vdj straight away yet one had only used home edition with a mouse and eyboard and the other had migrated to traktor because his controller wasnt supported "apparently".
one guy stated and i quote "come on do you really need to ask? how many pro`s even semi pro`s use vdj?- none. try out the free version its trys to do too much without doing one thing properly! it is for kids its the v-tech of the dj software"
which is a bold statement to make about a software without knowing its full potential.
when i replied to this statement and commented on vdj i got the most mature answer ive ever seen.
"if you bum vdj so much wtf you doin on the NI forum?"
sigh...
its such a shame that vdj gets insulted so much
发表时间 Sat 16 Jul 11 @ 7:09 am
Blulite
Dozo10 wrote :
Stuff and skins i don't mind , BUT the support that an illegal user gets... unbelieveable!
And yes i know it helps some of them in there disission to go legal but the majority is doing just fine with illegal stuff.
Then again , i met in the last 2 months about 18 DJ's of witch i was THE ONLY LEGAL user of aftermarket dj software.(7 of them used VDJ)
When i talked to the dj's about there software they all started laughing: why pay??
This is for kids and bedroom dj's they (Atomix) don't care if i use it ... and i was like ... but .....but....but ...
and then just walked away...
That really makes me think that i am the idiot who is doing it wrong.
And yes i know it helps some of them in there disission to go legal but the majority is doing just fine with illegal stuff.
Then again , i met in the last 2 months about 18 DJ's of witch i was THE ONLY LEGAL user of aftermarket dj software.(7 of them used VDJ)
When i talked to the dj's about there software they all started laughing: why pay??
This is for kids and bedroom dj's they (Atomix) don't care if i use it ... and i was like ... but .....but....but ...
and then just walked away...
That really makes me think that i am the idiot who is doing it wrong.
i think we need someone to seek out websites holding illegal files and post copyright claims on the sites. it would be highly beneficial for atomix to tighten up on the illegal downloads. i for one would be happy to see things tightened up.
1 legal user out of 18... wow...
发表时间 Sat 16 Jul 11 @ 7:14 am
Jam Master Rob
I have not tried Traktor or Serato or PC DJ or any other DJ program. I heard about VDJ at a reunion I was doing at a residency from another DJ that was there for the reunion. He told me about the features of VDJ and it took me six months to even go check out the option of DJ software. I downloaded the free 20 day pro trial. I was hooked, and bought the pro version. VDJ is a dream come true! As a audio and visual entertainer this was the perfect solution to my DJ problems that I had got used to, and forgot that they were problems at all.
I would not change the name at all. Virtual DJ is a great name, let the haters hate. I agree that it would be nice to have a pro forum for professional DJs and DJ buisness owners that you would have to meet certain requirements to view or post in that forum.
Everyone is a potential customer and unfortunatly some of those are theifs. Out of the 7 DJs that were using illeagle copies of VDJ this is the program they chose to steal instead of the others. The new DJ market is booming DJs are everywhere. I picked up some recees peanut butter cereal last week and the box was all about DJing, make up your own DJ name etc. Mainstream media has made being a DJ cool and their target audience is teens. Atomix is in a great spot with Virtual DJ in that market. They offer an easy and affordable way for those teens and even people like me to get into digital DJing.
As far as the less exspensive controllers that are bundled with VDJ LE, not everyone has grand to drop on a controller or even knows if they really want to be a DJ and money is tight these days so why would a company not cater to the beginner or budget DJ market. All of us use Virtual DJ for our own reasons and would not want to switch to another program. Mapping allows VDJ to be used with any high priced controller so all your bases are covered.
I am a professional. I would not use sub standard equipment or software for my clients and that's why I use Virtual DJ. And you can tell Mr Sam Ash on the west coast I said so.
I would not change the name at all. Virtual DJ is a great name, let the haters hate. I agree that it would be nice to have a pro forum for professional DJs and DJ buisness owners that you would have to meet certain requirements to view or post in that forum.
Everyone is a potential customer and unfortunatly some of those are theifs. Out of the 7 DJs that were using illeagle copies of VDJ this is the program they chose to steal instead of the others. The new DJ market is booming DJs are everywhere. I picked up some recees peanut butter cereal last week and the box was all about DJing, make up your own DJ name etc. Mainstream media has made being a DJ cool and their target audience is teens. Atomix is in a great spot with Virtual DJ in that market. They offer an easy and affordable way for those teens and even people like me to get into digital DJing.
As far as the less exspensive controllers that are bundled with VDJ LE, not everyone has grand to drop on a controller or even knows if they really want to be a DJ and money is tight these days so why would a company not cater to the beginner or budget DJ market. All of us use Virtual DJ for our own reasons and would not want to switch to another program. Mapping allows VDJ to be used with any high priced controller so all your bases are covered.
I am a professional. I would not use sub standard equipment or software for my clients and that's why I use Virtual DJ. And you can tell Mr Sam Ash on the west coast I said so.
发表时间 Sat 16 Jul 11 @ 8:16 am
mp3jrick
Blulite wrote :
i think we need someone to seek out websites holding illegal files and post copyright claims on the sites. it would be highly beneficial for atomix to tighten up on the illegal downloads. i for one would be happy to see things tightened up.
1 legal user out of 18... wow...
i think we need someone to seek out websites holding illegal files and post copyright claims on the sites. it would be highly beneficial for atomix to tighten up on the illegal downloads. i for one would be happy to see things tightened up.
1 legal user out of 18... wow...
We already aggressively do that, wow...
发表时间 Sat 16 Jul 11 @ 8:22 am
Dozo10
mp3jrick wrote :
We already aggressively do that, wow...
Blulite wrote :
i think we need someone to seek out websites holding illegal files and post copyright claims on the sites. it would be highly beneficial for atomix to tighten up on the illegal downloads. i for one would be happy to see things tightened up.
1 legal user out of 18... wow...
i think we need someone to seek out websites holding illegal files and post copyright claims on the sites. it would be highly beneficial for atomix to tighten up on the illegal downloads. i for one would be happy to see things tightened up.
1 legal user out of 18... wow...
We already aggressively do that, wow...
espesially the wow u replied irretates me,(bully-ing your own PAYING users ?)
so i went to google and typed in Virtual DJ 7 serial crack cracked version.
OW how much u do about it ;)
I wont give the examples what came up... but WOW...
发表时间 Sat 16 Jul 11 @ 8:54 am
kradcliffe
And what exactly is the difference to any other software out there?
Stupid people don't realise installers for cracked software are full of malware and trojans, so being a mug for paying is simply not true.
(are we really having this discussion yet again?)
Stupid people don't realise installers for cracked software are full of malware and trojans, so being a mug for paying is simply not true.
(are we really having this discussion yet again?)
发表时间 Sat 16 Jul 11 @ 9:09 am
mp3jrick
If you wanna be proactive in the fight you can report any links you find to a vip or teamer where we have avenues to pursue these sites.
发表时间 Sat 16 Jul 11 @ 9:10 am
Blulite
my thoughts exactly, there are a huge amount of sites that still carry illegal copies.
im not sure how it works with copyright claims but im sure an email to the sites admin with a warning of legal action would be enough to stop the software being allowed to be posted on the sites.
i for one wouldnt mind sifting through a few hundred sites..
im not sure how it works with copyright claims but im sure an email to the sites admin with a warning of legal action would be enough to stop the software being allowed to be posted on the sites.
i for one wouldnt mind sifting through a few hundred sites..
发表时间 Sat 16 Jul 11 @ 9:11 am
jboerlage
Mmm googled a bit, that leaked version of VirtualDJ 8/XD looks super and runs rocksolid with my rmx!! And check out that sample script. com on, when is that gonna be formally released!!
发表时间 Sat 16 Jul 11 @ 9:19 am
cstoll
Guess it's been about 9 months ... time for this discussion again ...
As presented in the last discussion ... when you look in the mirror - are you happy with what you use and how you do what you do as a DJ? Then why does it matter what people believe about the choices you have made as your tools to DJ with?
What I find funny every time this topic is brought up is that it is always the same 3 products discussed - SSL/Itch - Traktor - VirtualDJ
And does any one ever pay attention to the other forums for those products ?? When comparing the specific forum's product to other products the same three always come up - SSL/Itch - Traktor - VirtualDJ.
So to me that is a pretty exclusive club to be in. And the rivalry will always be there - It's like trying to talk about Pioneer - Denon - Numark
So who is the best there? I am sure everyone would give their opinion on what Numark could do to finally beat Denon and even Pioneer. And it would be the same advise you would give Atomix about VirtualDJ.
We get it - its not good being No. 2 or even No. 3 - but until we become the No. 1 product - I will take part in being proud of an exclusive club. A club that goes head to head on any given day with its two - yes 2 - biggest competitors.
If you personally dwell and let this issue bother you - that you are somehow using an inferior product just because someone that doesn't know anything about it - says so - then you need to really consider why you are even doing this business.
Is being a DJ all about the tools you choose? Or is it about having FUN and creating a party on the fly for 10, a 100, a 1000, or more people ?
As presented in the last discussion ... when you look in the mirror - are you happy with what you use and how you do what you do as a DJ? Then why does it matter what people believe about the choices you have made as your tools to DJ with?
What I find funny every time this topic is brought up is that it is always the same 3 products discussed - SSL/Itch - Traktor - VirtualDJ
And does any one ever pay attention to the other forums for those products ?? When comparing the specific forum's product to other products the same three always come up - SSL/Itch - Traktor - VirtualDJ.
So to me that is a pretty exclusive club to be in. And the rivalry will always be there - It's like trying to talk about Pioneer - Denon - Numark
So who is the best there? I am sure everyone would give their opinion on what Numark could do to finally beat Denon and even Pioneer. And it would be the same advise you would give Atomix about VirtualDJ.
We get it - its not good being No. 2 or even No. 3 - but until we become the No. 1 product - I will take part in being proud of an exclusive club. A club that goes head to head on any given day with its two - yes 2 - biggest competitors.
If you personally dwell and let this issue bother you - that you are somehow using an inferior product just because someone that doesn't know anything about it - says so - then you need to really consider why you are even doing this business.
Is being a DJ all about the tools you choose? Or is it about having FUN and creating a party on the fly for 10, a 100, a 1000, or more people ?
发表时间 Sat 16 Jul 11 @ 10:48 am
Jivajo
I'm butting in! Just because i love discussions!
Me being the ultra noob DJ i already noticed the discussions online about this matter.
And have to agree to cstoll and also disagree, yes i am capable of such feats...
I agree on the part that it should all be about fun and entertaining others and yourself!
But i don't agree on the statement earlier, ofcourse everyone knows VDJ it's major it's good otherwise i wouldn't use it!
My main issue is that alot (and i mean alot) of people whom i've had discussions with all say VDJ fits my personal experience level and that i will soon start using the big mudtruck program (traktor, for those who have never seen one they are big and drive through poop... J/K chill :D) and the itchy program...
Just because they haven't really used VDJ, i am constantly discovering more features even in the home free version!
The point is they look down on it!
Which is absolutely untrue and false and wrong and... (i think i made my point...) because it can compete with the others big time!
Therefore i agree to (forgot whose post it was) the idea of delivering it together with a new high end controller.
It's just a bummer that people look down on an amazing product!
I'm done preeching now... :D
Me being the ultra noob DJ i already noticed the discussions online about this matter.
And have to agree to cstoll and also disagree, yes i am capable of such feats...
I agree on the part that it should all be about fun and entertaining others and yourself!
But i don't agree on the statement earlier, ofcourse everyone knows VDJ it's major it's good otherwise i wouldn't use it!
My main issue is that alot (and i mean alot) of people whom i've had discussions with all say VDJ fits my personal experience level and that i will soon start using the big mudtruck program (traktor, for those who have never seen one they are big and drive through poop... J/K chill :D) and the itchy program...
Just because they haven't really used VDJ, i am constantly discovering more features even in the home free version!
The point is they look down on it!
Which is absolutely untrue and false and wrong and... (i think i made my point...) because it can compete with the others big time!
Therefore i agree to (forgot whose post it was) the idea of delivering it together with a new high end controller.
It's just a bummer that people look down on an amazing product!
I'm done preeching now... :D
发表时间 Sat 16 Jul 11 @ 11:19 am
pskeens
cstoll wrote :
Guess it's been about 9 months ... time for this discussion again ...
The point of this discussion was not to discuss legal and illegal copies, rebranding, etc. like in the past. The point of this Thread was to express irritation that so many professionals have and Professional SALES people bad things to say about this product! They say things that are purely not true and yes it bothers me.
I'm not talking about DJ's in particular, I'm talking about SALES associates in music stores that downgrade VDJ. People come into the store and look at a controller bundled with VDJ and a salesman says "yes thats a great controller but you want to upgrade the software that it comes with as its not very stable, or not for professionals". How many people wants to buy a controller that comes with crap software? Not many.
Yes we know the difference but thousands of people do not, they buy a cheap controller or cheaper controller to start with and that seed is planted at the start of their DJ'ing career. This is the simple point I was making with this thread.
发表时间 Sat 16 Jul 11 @ 11:42 am
CRashster
pskeens wrote :
The point of this discussion was not to discuss legal and illegal copies, rebranding, etc. like in the past. The point of this Thread was to express irritation that so many professionals have and Professional SALES people bad things to say about this product! They say things that are purely not true and yes it bothers me.
I'm not talking about DJ's in particular, I'm talking about SALES associates in music stores that downgrade VDJ. People come into the store and look at a controller bundled with VDJ and a salesman says "yes thats a great controller but you want to upgrade the software that it comes with as its not very stable, or not for professionals". How many people wants to buy a controller that comes with crap software? Not many.
Yes we know the difference but thousands of people do not, they buy a cheap controller or cheaper controller to start with and that seed is planted at the start of their DJ'ing career. This is the simple point I was making with this thread.
cstoll wrote :
Guess it's been about 9 months ... time for this discussion again ...
The point of this discussion was not to discuss legal and illegal copies, rebranding, etc. like in the past. The point of this Thread was to express irritation that so many professionals have and Professional SALES people bad things to say about this product! They say things that are purely not true and yes it bothers me.
I'm not talking about DJ's in particular, I'm talking about SALES associates in music stores that downgrade VDJ. People come into the store and look at a controller bundled with VDJ and a salesman says "yes thats a great controller but you want to upgrade the software that it comes with as its not very stable, or not for professionals". How many people wants to buy a controller that comes with crap software? Not many.
Yes we know the difference but thousands of people do not, they buy a cheap controller or cheaper controller to start with and that seed is planted at the start of their DJ'ing career. This is the simple point I was making with this thread.
I like VDj. I use VDJ. I don't listen to people who work at Sam Ash. Why do you let them bother you?
发表时间 Sat 16 Jul 11 @ 12:18 pm
mp3jrick
pskeens wrote :
I'm not talking about DJ's in particular, I'm talking about SALES associates in music stores that downgrade VDJ.
I'm not talking about DJ's in particular, I'm talking about SALES associates in music stores that downgrade VDJ.
Now, lets totally forget that these sales associates work of a commission basis in many if not most of these retail stores, what would you do if you were working at these stores?
I know MANY professional dj's who have jumped the fence and jumped back despite dropping the big $$$ on the interfaces.
Ask a SSL user how well it works on pc, and also ask them if they are a video dj if they are actually using SSL or Mix Emergency.
Ask them how many file formats SSL can handle also.
Like Chris said, its about YOUR choice, nobody else has a say that is valid.
Another perspective on this:
Ask any SSL user what they use for weddings or parties when not in the club.
Then compare the income between those two types of djing and see what is personally more valid to you as a dj.
The stability statements are rapidly losing strength also.
发表时间 Sat 16 Jul 11 @ 12:19 pm
