d_berthelot
Hi guys,
I'm member of another forum which is focused on making music with Reason (it's some musical software in case you never heard about it).
Anyway, some guy asked what software was good to make "mixtapes" and everyone told him that the only software worth checking was Traktor. That was until I pitched in to promote AtomixMP3 (which drove me to the website just to discover that there was a new version and a new product VDJ).
So I did my shopping, downloaded demo version of both VDJ and Traktor. To say the least I was blasted away by the intuitiveness of VDJ (ok I was used to AtomixMP3 so I might be biaised here) and I really loved the new Beatlock feature (which is perfect to mix two tracks during their respective breaks while staying in sync).
On the other hand, I also tried Traktor (by the way this product is quite expensive in its studio version but the basic version is cheaper than VDJ...). Anyway Traktor has an interface that I really liked, I was looking all other the place to find which button to click and the sync was a nightmare ! I mean the beatmatching algorithms... I don't know if it's supposed to be this way but it was very hard to keep two tracks in sync for more than 8 beats ! The problem is that you have two windows to follow the two tracks, no wave overlapping !
So in the end, I upgraded to VDJ ;)
But coming back to the topic of the music forum, I think that the fact that everyone recommend Traktor is a good indication that NI is very good at marketing, and their soul-less user interface lures the users and the press into thinking that the software itself is good (well their synthesizers are extremely good to be fair, so my remark is mainly valid for PC-DJing). So come on guys, do your marketing because if I didn't discover AtomixMP3 a while ago by pure luck I would have probably never got to know of its very existence although I'm in many music forums (mainly production oriented).
Ok, I stop here, that was just my little feedback from the music scene, if you read all of this big message, congratulations (and thanks) ;)
David.B
I'm member of another forum which is focused on making music with Reason (it's some musical software in case you never heard about it).
Anyway, some guy asked what software was good to make "mixtapes" and everyone told him that the only software worth checking was Traktor. That was until I pitched in to promote AtomixMP3 (which drove me to the website just to discover that there was a new version and a new product VDJ).
So I did my shopping, downloaded demo version of both VDJ and Traktor. To say the least I was blasted away by the intuitiveness of VDJ (ok I was used to AtomixMP3 so I might be biaised here) and I really loved the new Beatlock feature (which is perfect to mix two tracks during their respective breaks while staying in sync).
On the other hand, I also tried Traktor (by the way this product is quite expensive in its studio version but the basic version is cheaper than VDJ...). Anyway Traktor has an interface that I really liked, I was looking all other the place to find which button to click and the sync was a nightmare ! I mean the beatmatching algorithms... I don't know if it's supposed to be this way but it was very hard to keep two tracks in sync for more than 8 beats ! The problem is that you have two windows to follow the two tracks, no wave overlapping !
So in the end, I upgraded to VDJ ;)
But coming back to the topic of the music forum, I think that the fact that everyone recommend Traktor is a good indication that NI is very good at marketing, and their soul-less user interface lures the users and the press into thinking that the software itself is good (well their synthesizers are extremely good to be fair, so my remark is mainly valid for PC-DJing). So come on guys, do your marketing because if I didn't discover AtomixMP3 a while ago by pure luck I would have probably never got to know of its very existence although I'm in many music forums (mainly production oriented).
Ok, I stop here, that was just my little feedback from the music scene, if you read all of this big message, congratulations (and thanks) ;)
David.B
发表时间 Tue 06 Jul 04 @ 1:29 pm
Dj Morris
thanx for this review David.B !
发表时间 Tue 06 Jul 04 @ 2:15 pm
Superstom
I think the best way to promote VDJ is spreading the word by users. Like you did on other forums. But you could also think at exhibitions, parties, DJ events and so on.
I also posted about VDJ at forums of for example Denon, Pioneer and so on.
Users will try the demo and if they like it they will join the VDJ community. The advantage for us is that more money will be available for the team to do development. On the other hand the more DJ's use VDJ the more it will be accepted by club owners, party organisers and other (vinyl) DJ's
Ewout
I also posted about VDJ at forums of for example Denon, Pioneer and so on.
Users will try the demo and if they like it they will join the VDJ community. The advantage for us is that more money will be available for the team to do development. On the other hand the more DJ's use VDJ the more it will be accepted by club owners, party organisers and other (vinyl) DJ's
Ewout
发表时间 Tue 06 Jul 04 @ 6:50 pm
DJ Walkers
Well said superstorm!
发表时间 Tue 06 Jul 04 @ 6:53 pm
d_berthelot
I agree that the word of mouth can be a way of promoting software. But if you were to place yourself from the marketing point of view, the best approach is to put ads in the magazines and if possible get big shot DJs to endorse the software like NI did with DJ Hell (I think).
I'm not going to tell you guys how to run your business of course ;) It's just my vision on things, I'm quite initiated to that because I'm in the Silicon Valley and I've been in a startup (anyway that's enough details). One thing is well known, the success of a product depends less on technology than on marketing (think about Microsoft amongst others). I think you have a kickass product and I think you can make it big. Just spot the right markets in the right countries, for example rap is big in US and many kids want to be DJs, so getting a a rap DJ to promote it could mean big returns. In Europe go for techno and/or dance and/or rap, etc...
One other thing is the user interface: it's good and I love it but if you compare it to let's say Traktor, Traktor looks more pro, it's just a subjective perception from the graphical design. So in the end, having a more sober graphical design for the default skin might translate into giving a more professional feeling for first time users (again no offense, I'm not talking about my experience but what I think could change other people first impressions).
Also having a boxed version of the software is a good thing because many people into DJing are hanging at the music shops.
In the end, I don't mean to patronize you, just dropping in some ideas, no more ;) Don't worry guys I'm not applying for a PR job position ;)
David.B
I'm not going to tell you guys how to run your business of course ;) It's just my vision on things, I'm quite initiated to that because I'm in the Silicon Valley and I've been in a startup (anyway that's enough details). One thing is well known, the success of a product depends less on technology than on marketing (think about Microsoft amongst others). I think you have a kickass product and I think you can make it big. Just spot the right markets in the right countries, for example rap is big in US and many kids want to be DJs, so getting a a rap DJ to promote it could mean big returns. In Europe go for techno and/or dance and/or rap, etc...
One other thing is the user interface: it's good and I love it but if you compare it to let's say Traktor, Traktor looks more pro, it's just a subjective perception from the graphical design. So in the end, having a more sober graphical design for the default skin might translate into giving a more professional feeling for first time users (again no offense, I'm not talking about my experience but what I think could change other people first impressions).
Also having a boxed version of the software is a good thing because many people into DJing are hanging at the music shops.
In the end, I don't mean to patronize you, just dropping in some ideas, no more ;) Don't worry guys I'm not applying for a PR job position ;)
David.B
发表时间 Tue 06 Jul 04 @ 11:07 pm
d_berthelot
LOL now I must be looking foolish or insightful ;) I didn't realize that VirtualDJ was published in a boxed version by eJay for the entry level user under the name DJMixStation2 !!! I pretty much described the eJay line of product unknowingly ;)
发表时间 Wed 07 Jul 04 @ 8:21 am
djbambi
Nope, you don't look foolish. I definitely agree with everything you said above. This market is about to explode, the stick-to-vinyl purists are starting to expand their horizon, and once you've started using CD-decks, there's no reason to not go to mp3.
This market is going to be huge, VDJ is the best product by far from a DJ standpoint (and XP10s will undoubtly make it incredibly powerful. looking at the XP10 config panel in VDJ2 I just can't wait!).
Atomix ought to be the leader in this market if they apply a good world-wide marketing strategy, basically following your advice which I'm 100% with, from a professional looking default skin to famous-dj sponsoring (add to that an mpeg of said dj using VDJ on this site, and a commercial mix-cd with a "powered by vdj" sitcker). Hell, even go to Ibiza if you have to, hit the cheezy crowd! give the $$$ to Guetta or Garnier (to keep that french touch) and make it big at the next Miami Winter Music Conference. YOUR PRODUCT IS READY, JUST DO IT, we're all behind you!!!
If you read the story of Mr Clavel (http://www.cnrs.fr/STIC/STICOLD/actions/start-up/zooms/atomix.html, I found it on google by doing a search on atomix productions), it has all the ingredients of a successful start-up story. Got the development down first, now the thing is ready to explode marketing-wise...
Nicolas
(now back in France,but spent the last decade living in several of the above-mentioned places including doing the start-up thing where David is now, so I know where he's coming from :)
This market is going to be huge, VDJ is the best product by far from a DJ standpoint (and XP10s will undoubtly make it incredibly powerful. looking at the XP10 config panel in VDJ2 I just can't wait!).
Atomix ought to be the leader in this market if they apply a good world-wide marketing strategy, basically following your advice which I'm 100% with, from a professional looking default skin to famous-dj sponsoring (add to that an mpeg of said dj using VDJ on this site, and a commercial mix-cd with a "powered by vdj" sitcker). Hell, even go to Ibiza if you have to, hit the cheezy crowd! give the $$$ to Guetta or Garnier (to keep that french touch) and make it big at the next Miami Winter Music Conference. YOUR PRODUCT IS READY, JUST DO IT, we're all behind you!!!
If you read the story of Mr Clavel (http://www.cnrs.fr/STIC/STICOLD/actions/start-up/zooms/atomix.html, I found it on google by doing a search on atomix productions), it has all the ingredients of a successful start-up story. Got the development down first, now the thing is ready to explode marketing-wise...
Nicolas
(now back in France,but spent the last decade living in several of the above-mentioned places including doing the start-up thing where David is now, so I know where he's coming from :)
发表时间 Wed 07 Jul 04 @ 9:35 am
d_berthelot
Thanks for the message and the very interesting link. Finally may be I should apply for a PR position, the company business operation was 0.5MEuro ;) It's clear that this technology has a huge potential and it seems technically superior to the competition. Now they just need to straighten their image (which shouldn't be difficult, they are many simple ways) and they market it aggressively.
I hope that Stephane Clavel will read this thread ;)
I hope that Stephane Clavel will read this thread ;)
发表时间 Wed 07 Jul 04 @ 11:34 am
djmagicfingers
Well folks, i hate to be the one to breaks the party BUT :
I am using both Traktor DJ Studio and Virtual DJ 2 and i can give you the basic elements that differ from both.
1. Traktor is FAR MORE STABLE than VDJ2 and the audio engin is much better !
2. The SYNC button on Traktor functions the same as the RIGHT click on VDJ2 - it syncs the beat momentaraly. This behavior can also be preset to be toggled and when it is toggled, it works even better than on VDJ2.
The sync function on Traktor can also be switched between 2 modes - instant sync or graduating sync.
3. Traktor supports ASIO very well where VDJ has some issiues not solved yet.
4. Traktor has better loop handelling - you can move the loop while it is looped back and forward as meny beats as you like and this can also be fine tuned. VDJ can only give you the poor knob to move the beatstartpoint without any beat-snapping.
5. Traktor can be cued AND BEAT-SNAPPED at any point during the song and at any given time - VDJ can only snap to the first beat and that is never accurate.
6. Traktor's Master tempo is far better than the skipping Master tempo VDJ has.
7. Traktor's waveform is easier to comprehand than VDJ's waveform.
8. VDJ's waveform can be zoomed in and out while Traktor's waveform can't.
9. VDJ is faster than Traktor when reading record cases.
10. VDJ has SO MANY effects that can be modified and changed while Traktor has only one - (very good one but ONLY one) filter.
11. VDJ has SYNCed loops and sample module - Traktor lacks that module.
For me, Traktor is the main program that i work with (STABILITY is the name of the game here) and on the second laptop i play with VDJ as my "double DJ" helpper.
I belive one day VDJ will be as good as Traktor and as stable as Traktor but only days and downloads will tell..........
I am using both Traktor DJ Studio and Virtual DJ 2 and i can give you the basic elements that differ from both.
1. Traktor is FAR MORE STABLE than VDJ2 and the audio engin is much better !
2. The SYNC button on Traktor functions the same as the RIGHT click on VDJ2 - it syncs the beat momentaraly. This behavior can also be preset to be toggled and when it is toggled, it works even better than on VDJ2.
The sync function on Traktor can also be switched between 2 modes - instant sync or graduating sync.
3. Traktor supports ASIO very well where VDJ has some issiues not solved yet.
4. Traktor has better loop handelling - you can move the loop while it is looped back and forward as meny beats as you like and this can also be fine tuned. VDJ can only give you the poor knob to move the beatstartpoint without any beat-snapping.
5. Traktor can be cued AND BEAT-SNAPPED at any point during the song and at any given time - VDJ can only snap to the first beat and that is never accurate.
6. Traktor's Master tempo is far better than the skipping Master tempo VDJ has.
7. Traktor's waveform is easier to comprehand than VDJ's waveform.
8. VDJ's waveform can be zoomed in and out while Traktor's waveform can't.
9. VDJ is faster than Traktor when reading record cases.
10. VDJ has SO MANY effects that can be modified and changed while Traktor has only one - (very good one but ONLY one) filter.
11. VDJ has SYNCed loops and sample module - Traktor lacks that module.
For me, Traktor is the main program that i work with (STABILITY is the name of the game here) and on the second laptop i play with VDJ as my "double DJ" helpper.
I belive one day VDJ will be as good as Traktor and as stable as Traktor but only days and downloads will tell..........
发表时间 Wed 21 Jul 04 @ 10:12 pm
Rune (DJ-In-Norway)
djmagicfingers, I hate breaking parties too...lol
BUT, I really really think you are so wrong! :) sorry
1. VDJ is stable, I use it professionally, have never had a crash! even tested it heavily at home to try to make it crash, an it ain't easy ;) lol..
and even more, VDJ is a lot smoother, and easier, having an intuitive interface etc.
As of sound, it seems like Traktor has a DSP going (digital signal processing), implemented in the program. I prefer VDJ over that, playing the mp3's "as they are", and let the user choose if they want to prosess sound or not, by using an equalizer, vst plug-in or something to "add warmth", clarity etc.
I think that’s a lot better way to do things, that what it seems (for me) that Traktor or even Winamp does, have a DSP try to "make a better sound" that is hidden from the user... I like it better that VDJ plays mp3's "as they are".. but the DSP can make songs "sound better", but just download the 32-band eq plugin, and make your own preset ;)
2. the sync/beatmatch engine in VDJ are light-years ahead of Traktor.. sorry, have to disagree on you on this point, big time ;)
3. U are right, as of now. ASIO came around first time in vdj 2.0... there will be better support in updates.. so hang around :)
4. Before u give a criticism, please ... eh.. try the program? sorry... not trying to be hard or anything, BUT u can move loops manually, by beat, increase/decrease loops manually, fine tune length etc etc etc in VDJ!!!!!
It's just somewhat frustrating to see someone try to give a good comparison between programs, when being on "thin ice"... Go download a pro skin (that show more of the options in vdj) and see for yourself.. BECAUSE THE LOOP SYSTEM/ENGINE IN VDJ IS SOOOO MUCH BETTER!! And there are a lot more that a “poor knob”.. lol… update to a pro skin, and check it out ;)
5. yo!!! again.. u can have up to 9 cue points in vdj, and you can snap back to all of them... and its very accurate ;)
6. maybe... I’m not sure on this one...
7. NOW, this is where I really lost you!!!! really???? the dual wave display in VDJ is unique, and makes it stand out from all the rest of the DJ programs!! and its soooo much better than Traktor... cant believe u disagree on this.... well ... ;)
AND YES!!! VDJ has synced loops, and sample engine ! and Traktor dont... and synced loops are a reason enough for me to state that VDJ is a far better program for me to use at my gigs :)
well... guess we can disagree... :) but I just had to comment on you, as I really really believe you are so wrong on those topics..
but, again, we might disagree :) lol
BUT, I really really think you are so wrong! :) sorry
1. VDJ is stable, I use it professionally, have never had a crash! even tested it heavily at home to try to make it crash, an it ain't easy ;) lol..
and even more, VDJ is a lot smoother, and easier, having an intuitive interface etc.
As of sound, it seems like Traktor has a DSP going (digital signal processing), implemented in the program. I prefer VDJ over that, playing the mp3's "as they are", and let the user choose if they want to prosess sound or not, by using an equalizer, vst plug-in or something to "add warmth", clarity etc.
I think that’s a lot better way to do things, that what it seems (for me) that Traktor or even Winamp does, have a DSP try to "make a better sound" that is hidden from the user... I like it better that VDJ plays mp3's "as they are".. but the DSP can make songs "sound better", but just download the 32-band eq plugin, and make your own preset ;)
2. the sync/beatmatch engine in VDJ are light-years ahead of Traktor.. sorry, have to disagree on you on this point, big time ;)
3. U are right, as of now. ASIO came around first time in vdj 2.0... there will be better support in updates.. so hang around :)
4. Before u give a criticism, please ... eh.. try the program? sorry... not trying to be hard or anything, BUT u can move loops manually, by beat, increase/decrease loops manually, fine tune length etc etc etc in VDJ!!!!!
It's just somewhat frustrating to see someone try to give a good comparison between programs, when being on "thin ice"... Go download a pro skin (that show more of the options in vdj) and see for yourself.. BECAUSE THE LOOP SYSTEM/ENGINE IN VDJ IS SOOOO MUCH BETTER!! And there are a lot more that a “poor knob”.. lol… update to a pro skin, and check it out ;)
5. yo!!! again.. u can have up to 9 cue points in vdj, and you can snap back to all of them... and its very accurate ;)
6. maybe... I’m not sure on this one...
7. NOW, this is where I really lost you!!!! really???? the dual wave display in VDJ is unique, and makes it stand out from all the rest of the DJ programs!! and its soooo much better than Traktor... cant believe u disagree on this.... well ... ;)
AND YES!!! VDJ has synced loops, and sample engine ! and Traktor dont... and synced loops are a reason enough for me to state that VDJ is a far better program for me to use at my gigs :)
well... guess we can disagree... :) but I just had to comment on you, as I really really believe you are so wrong on those topics..
but, again, we might disagree :) lol
发表时间 Wed 21 Jul 04 @ 11:38 pm
Rune (DJ-In-Norway)
have to correct myself to the better .. lol ;)
"...Inifinte cue points saved per song..." ;) not only 9.. lol ;)
"...Inifinte cue points saved per song..." ;) not only 9.. lol ;)
发表时间 Thu 22 Jul 04 @ 12:12 am
apopsisdj
I don't know about v2.0 but, better compare stability
with the 1.08/1.09 versions of vdj ...
I've seen many times Traktor demo to crash...
He is right about the timestreching algorithm,
and maybe the overal sound.
And no tricks are used (Dj in Norvey), just better algorithms, maybe..
Remember Native instuments is the leader for music software,
they made many of the best vst/dxi plugins, so they had
the sound engine ready...
But Vdj has a big advantage : SIMPLICITY - and PLEASE...
keep it this way !
Something that makes you feel safe in a gig, no Id3tags MESS,
no database to build, just load from existing files and folders.
Also less time to setup, only one file to backup (database)
For me the advantage of Vdj is stronger.
And i have tested ...every dj/mixing program that exitst...
with the 1.08/1.09 versions of vdj ...
I've seen many times Traktor demo to crash...
He is right about the timestreching algorithm,
and maybe the overal sound.
And no tricks are used (Dj in Norvey), just better algorithms, maybe..
Remember Native instuments is the leader for music software,
they made many of the best vst/dxi plugins, so they had
the sound engine ready...
But Vdj has a big advantage : SIMPLICITY - and PLEASE...
keep it this way !
Something that makes you feel safe in a gig, no Id3tags MESS,
no database to build, just load from existing files and folders.
Also less time to setup, only one file to backup (database)
For me the advantage of Vdj is stronger.
And i have tested ...every dj/mixing program that exitst...
发表时间 Thu 22 Jul 04 @ 12:27 am
Rune (DJ-In-Norway)
ok ;) that might be true... better algorithms.... as u say, they are a leading music company.. I to can hear the "better sound"
but as of the total package, VDJ stands out better, I think...a lot better
but as of the total package, VDJ stands out better, I think...a lot better
发表时间 Thu 22 Jul 04 @ 12:34 am
apopsisdj
For the sound i can complain only for the time stretching
algorithm, (i have already write about it and i don't want
to repeat myself).
If you disable it then Vdj sounds realy good.
Traktor uses Fraunhofer for decode. This is the standard
because of they (Fraunhofer) have "discovered" mp3...
But Vdj uses Lame wich is also very good (if not better)and i'm sure, cheeper for Atomix to buy the rights to use it...
algorithm, (i have already write about it and i don't want
to repeat myself).
If you disable it then Vdj sounds realy good.
Traktor uses Fraunhofer for decode. This is the standard
because of they (Fraunhofer) have "discovered" mp3...
But Vdj uses Lame wich is also very good (if not better)and i'm sure, cheeper for Atomix to buy the rights to use it...
发表时间 Thu 22 Jul 04 @ 12:53 am
apopsisdj
"cheeper"... i meant, cheaper..
Sorry for my bad english...
I'm from Greece, waiting for Vdj users for the Olympic games..
Sorry for my bad english...
I'm from Greece, waiting for Vdj users for the Olympic games..
发表时间 Thu 22 Jul 04 @ 12:56 am
bourriquo
& make Fiesta to celebrate Euro-Foot too !!! Great job !!
发表时间 Thu 22 Jul 04 @ 1:39 am
I just tried Traktor this week. It's nice. Not exactly "simple" - the interface is daunting.
I also had problems with skipping on Traktor playback - never happened once in my glorious 30 day trail of VDJ.
Traktor needs some variety in it's skins.
I still prefer VDJ and when they get the pitch reset issue fixed, I'm paying real $$$ and becoming a true user!
I also had problems with skipping on Traktor playback - never happened once in my glorious 30 day trail of VDJ.
Traktor needs some variety in it's skins.
I still prefer VDJ and when they get the pitch reset issue fixed, I'm paying real $$$ and becoming a true user!
发表时间 Thu 22 Jul 04 @ 3:57 am
digijoc-Mele
@magicfingers
This statement alone makes me question your gudgement:
"7. Traktor's waveform is easier to comprehand than VDJ's waveform."
Give me a break !
vDj waveform display is revolutionary and useful for actually mixing. Traktor's separate waveform windows consumes extra space and only serves to show upcoming breaks.
As for Traktor having a better sound.... vDj audio quality sounds completely acceptable to me and all the listening/dancing audiences that have heard me. Maybe you are doing something like playing your vDJ levels at 0db. They can become 'hot' there and cause the sound to be a little muddy... I play @ -3db and use auto-level in the setup options.
This statement alone makes me question your gudgement:
"7. Traktor's waveform is easier to comprehand than VDJ's waveform."
Give me a break !
vDj waveform display is revolutionary and useful for actually mixing. Traktor's separate waveform windows consumes extra space and only serves to show upcoming breaks.
As for Traktor having a better sound.... vDj audio quality sounds completely acceptable to me and all the listening/dancing audiences that have heard me. Maybe you are doing something like playing your vDJ levels at 0db. They can become 'hot' there and cause the sound to be a little muddy... I play @ -3db and use auto-level in the setup options.
发表时间 Thu 22 Jul 04 @ 1:09 pm
Rune (DJ-In-Norway)
very true :) I also use less then zero db for gain, seems to be a better sound.. I actually have it as low as -5db
also, use auto-gain ONLY, to keep the levels equal...
DON'T use limiter on top of that, seems to make sound bad.
:)
also, use auto-gain ONLY, to keep the levels equal...
DON'T use limiter on top of that, seems to make sound bad.
:)
发表时间 Thu 22 Jul 04 @ 1:25 pm
DJ Ross M
I've turned AGC and Level Control off completely and have them set pelow 0dB and think the sound is much better.
If I get quieter tracks...which I often do...I simply use the gain on my mixer to correct.
If I get quieter tracks...which I often do...I simply use the gain on my mixer to correct.
发表时间 Thu 22 Jul 04 @ 8:30 pm
