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Forum: General Discussion

话题: In-ear buds / Noise-cancelling ear buds
Has anybody used in-ear buds instead of headphones while DJing? I have been considering buying some to replace my headphones - and keep them in my ears for the duration of each disco. Part of my reasoning behind this is to protect my hearing as I know it is partially damaged after 45 years DJing. (I am getting on a bit now!) A couple of hearing tests have confirmed this. The damage is not serious, but I don't want to risk further damage.

Out of curiosity, I have taken a sound pressure meter with me to various discos and have seen levels of 109-112dBa being reached BEHIND the decks/speakers. I know these levels are not overly loud when compared to some disco systems, but these levels WILL damage hearing if experienced regularly. Even some rock and punk concerts I have attended recently only register 106 to 109dBa and nothing higher.

If you have used in-ear buds, how have you found them? I can imagine they will take some getting used to, particularly with respect to getting your vocal levels just right.

Would anybody recommend noise-cancelling ear buds? This bumps up the price considerably, but perhaps this is the way to go. £200 seems to be a reasonable price for a well-known branded pair (Sony), but it's still quite an expense as there are two of us which will need these.

Thank you for any info or any tips - John.
 
发表时间 Mon 19 Aug 24 @ 9:02 pm
IEMs are great...........for some situations. I have two pairs and use them rather than headphones - but I'm using them at home when streaming. I'm not using a PA system, and I don't have people approaching me to ask for requests.

I think in a gig situation headphones are a better choice, because you wouldn't keep them on all the time, so you can hear your PA (to judge volume and EQ) and also hear what people say when they talk to you.
 
发表时间 Tue 20 Aug 24 @ 7:48 am
One of my friends spent a fortune on a pair because he was convinced he was going deaf, then realised he was screwing up gigs because he couldn't monitor the volume or hear what he was saying on the mic. Had to take them out every time someone wanted a chat. Lasted about a month then got ditched for the normal headphones.
 
发表时间 Tue 20 Aug 24 @ 8:16 am
The mic thing isn't a problem if your kit routes the mic to the headphones, which varies between equipment.

The Denon Prime 4 didn't when it was first released, but they added it later.

It's mainly the fact that you can't hear the room. For a band on stage IEMs are standard, but usually they have someone else dealing with the mix, and they don't have audience members asking them things.
 
发表时间 Tue 20 Aug 24 @ 8:54 am
IEMs are different things than "Buds"

IEMs: YES, as long as you can feel comfortable with them and/or you can adapt your workflow to work with them.

Buds: For DJ-ing ? Hell NO!


PS: I use IEMs since 2015 and I will never go back to regular headphones. But that's just me.
 
发表时间 Tue 20 Aug 24 @ 11:13 am
I now use Shure SE215's without issue (one ear in most of the time if people are trying to interact), but it did take getting used to.

I feel like the (imo) better isolation (compared to similarly priced over-ear headphones), ultimately has me driving them at lower volumes while still being able to monitor properly.
It also allows my ears to breathe - my previous over ears (Beats Mixr) always made my ears sweaty over time.
 
发表时间 Tue 20 Aug 24 @ 11:16 am
I use SE215 too.
When I was testing to buy new IEMs 2 years ago I have tried SE425 as well.
SE425 are better overall, but not for DJ's :P
They have better frequency responce from SE215, but SE215 are a little more bassy. Nothing too fancy or to worry about, but it helps a lot in our case.
I also use a Shure PSM-900 wireless kit and it had made my life easier than ever!
 
发表时间 Tue 20 Aug 24 @ 11:31 am
I've never tried anything higher than the 215s - I expected they would have more drivers/wider + flatter frequency response/potentially sound better but are a lot more expensive - the SE 215s were good enough for me when I initially tried them.
I guess the Shure PSM-900 wireless kit has minimum added latency for the wireless protocol (compared to regular Bluetooth)?m and is acceptible enough for DJ minitoring?
 
发表时间 Tue 20 Aug 24 @ 11:47 am
Latency compared to Bluetooth is night and day.

PS: If thousands of professional/superstar musicians/singers/performers find the latency of wireless IEM systems acceptable for their performance on huge arenas in front of thousands of people, I'm sure DJ's can find it acceptable too.. :P
And YES, wireless IEM systems have improved a lot the last 10 years or so. So much so, that wired "monitor" speakers as we know them in front of a stage have become obsolete on live performances where a lot of people have to share a small space and the same speaker while having different mix/monitoring requirements.
 
发表时间 Tue 20 Aug 24 @ 1:14 pm
Great to know (although 1000 CAD is an expensive undertaking for headphone monitoring, at least for me).
 
发表时间 Tue 20 Aug 24 @ 3:09 pm
GROOVINDJ

I know what you mean about the need to take off the headphones so you can better hear the levels of your PA and what people say when they talk to you. The think I have found is (for me at least) I can hear what people say better when I have headphones on. Try sticking a finger in your ear when listening to somebody giving a request. The headphones dampen down the general noise and I can hear people's voices far more easily. I know - it's my own vocal levels I need to be careful about when replying as anything over or in-ear changes your perception of your own voice. Particularly how loud you are.


KRADCLIFFE

My fears exactly. It would be such a waste of money if I had to ditch any new buds and go back to the headphones.


GROOVINDJ

I would think a bit of practice should be all I need to get all the levels right. In most situations, I know exactly where I need to set the faders of my mixer, the mic levels, the main output and the levels of my speakers. I find this doesn't change an awful lot from venue to venue. But this can be different when doing a karaoke because excessive volume at a karaoke can result in mic feedback, so karaoke gigs tend to be a little 'quieter'. This depends on the acoustics of the venue too of course.


PHANTOMDEEJAY

"Buds: For DJ-ing ? Hell NO!"

Thanks for this. I do have this concern.

As I say about, I need to give this a try. We have a gig this coming Friday and I have a pair of (cabled) in-ear buds which should afford me the opportunity to see if I can get on with them while using the mic. These are Panasonic and have a good 'full' overall sound. No noise cancelling though. I had to use these a few times when my AKG headphones broke.

So IEMs are different to 'buds'? How so? I must have missed something here. I see they are using these to replace traditional loudspeaker stage monitors.

Will report back with my findings.

Thanks for your views.
 
发表时间 Tue 20 Aug 24 @ 5:28 pm
IEMs are a professional low latency wireless solution when paired with a good quality transmitter.
 
发表时间 Tue 20 Aug 24 @ 6:28 pm
 
发表时间 Tue 20 Aug 24 @ 9:53 pm
kradcliffe wrote :
IEMs are a professional low latency wireless solution when paired with a good quality transmitter.


IEMs (In Ear Monitors) are not necessarily wireless. It is very common to "convert" them to wireless, but they don't have too.

Generally speaking, IEMs are specifically designed for what their name stands for:
1) IN EAR.
IEMs always get inside your ear canal and seal it from outside noises. A lot of IEMs provide some means to let outside noise bleed in if that's what you wish for, but generally, IEMs must seal your ear canal from the rest of the environment.
2) MONITORS.
As "monitors" they should have a wide frequency range, nice frequency response, and they should not overtone any frequencies. Of course, in action, all IEMs while they try to be as flat as possible, they still have some mild "coloring" going on. But generally speaking IEMs do produce a "flat" sound (as they should)

On the other hand, when people refer to "buds" they almost never get inside your ear canal.
Therefore they cannot really seal your canal from the rest noises.
Also, since "buds" are consumer grade products, they introduce sound coloring. On a lot of cases that's not an issue for DJ-ing use, BUT on some cases this coloring may produce sound fatigue after some time of using them on hard listening environments as ours.
To make matters worse, thanks to Apple (and maybe Samsung as well) most people these days when they refer to "buds" they mean wireless Bluetooth buds.
Bluetooth has tremendous latency and it's not suitable for DJ use.

So, overall, "buds" are nice products to use in order to listen to music the way you like, and most importantly at the sound level (SPL) that you like, as much as you like, but they are not suitable for professional applications.

In a professional environment, you need to put these things in your ears for 2-4-5-6-8 hours straight.
So, these things, must be comfortable to wear.
These things fire audio to your ear drum from a very small distance. You don't want them to get very loud.
Since you are working on an environment with high SPL, the only way to achieve better listening/monitoring experience with lower SPL next to your ear drum, is to isolate the sounds of the environment.
That's why IEMs are always IN EAR solutions. They provide PASSIVE noise cancelling by being "IN EAR"

PS: A lot of "buds" offer "active" noise cancelling. It's a nice feature to have when you use your buds with your phone e.t.c. However the latency of these systems and the way they work, is still not suitable for DJ-ing/On stage use.

IEMs vary in prices A LOT.
A decent pair of IEMs (the wired part) can cost anywhere from $100 to $1000 or even more.
Of course DJs don't need all the bells and whistles that higher end IEMs offer, as usually those are designed with specific musician needs in mind (e.g. vocalists, drummers, bass players, e.t.c.)

Finally:
IEMs are not meant to be inserted and taken out of your ear canal constantly.
They are meant to be inserted and stay there for the entire gig.
Yes, it was hard for me to change my workflow (when I started using IEMs) to compensate for that.
However, after 3 or 4 gigs I developed the right mentality and muscle memory to use them in an efficient way. After a few gigs more, I swore to myself that I would never go back to using regular headphones :P
I'm saying this because YOU HAVE TO WANT to use them in order to make the switch.
PS: I would not consider using regular "buds" as an IEM experience. In fact "buds" are a much worse experience which can also make you develop bad habits as it's easy to remove the buds and wear them again as many times as you like during a gig.
 
发表时间 Wed 21 Aug 24 @ 6:17 am
Thank you for the additional info.

This is really VERY useful information. I had no idea that the bluetooth buds had latency before I posted this. Glad I did!

Thanks for the link GROOVINDJ

So, it looks like the IEMs are the way to go. I may invest in the model you linked to.

PHANTOMDEEJAY: That's a lot of really useful information. THANK YOU! I do 'get' what you say about "YOU HAVE TO WANT to use them in order to make the switch" Understood completely. I don't imagine for one minute that this will be easy, but I will give it a try as the tinnitus/ringing in my ears after each gig now is telling me that I need to do something to protect my hearing. If the IEM levels in my ears are significantly lower than those I hear without any protection, then I NEED to do this. They really like it LOUD in one of the venues we work. PAINFULLY LOUD!

Great information all! Thanks again.
 
发表时间 Wed 21 Aug 24 @ 1:36 pm
I use Etymotics Music Pro Elite ACTIVE ear plugs and I HIGHLY RECOMMEND them. I have hearing damage and tinnitus after 25 years of drumming in bands and now wear hearing aids, which are incredible but wouldn't be necessary if I'd only protected my hearing as a lad.

From the Etymotic website:
Quote :
Using active technology that constantly evaluates incoming sound the Music Pro Elite® gives you two modes of operation. The Low mode gives you transparent pass-through audio under 90db, with compression beginning at 60db. When the 90db threshold is passed it gives you 15db of attenuation for material above that level with a super-fast attack and release with the effect of only attenuating that sound. High Mode provides 9 dB of attenuation for loud sounds and 6 dB of gain (amplification) for soft sounds.


These things make such a difference. I wear them with the foam inserts. I can hear people talk to me while the music is playing. Everything sounds clear, just at a reasonable volume for me. At the end of the gig I take them out, no ringing in my ears, no deafness from hours of high-volume music. Seriously, everybody should be wearing these.

I just had my hearing tested last week and my chart is the same as it was two years ago...so no change. None of the DJ's I've talked to take this stuff seriously at all. Many of them are full-time DJ's and their hearing is their livelihood. Protect your hearing! Tinnitus sucks, and there is a link between hearing loss and Alzheimer's disease.
 
发表时间 Sat 07 Sep 24 @ 6:56 pm
Hi Paul.

Sorry for the late reply. What a great suggestion 0 and thank you for this.

After much deliberating, I finally settled on hearing protection, abandoning the wireless buds completely.

Instead, we purchased two sets of Sennheiser Protex Earplugs. They work very well indeed, reducing the overall audio levels by around 20dB. This reduces the levels to a much safer level below 90dB and they don't cause too many problems when using a mic. As expected, they do take a little bit of getting used to, but the main issue was hearing protection and these do the job nicely.
 
发表时间 Mon 14 Oct 24 @ 11:30 am