schmidi_0
Hi all!
I've got an old Ness Microflower, a simple sound active moonflower fixture with a 250w halogen bulb. The thing just wont die, and the body is in good shape, but the mirror colors inside are quite dated (pre dichroic glass).
I was thinking about buying new colored mirror glass, and swapping out the halogen for a couple of large LEDs.
Or I could go clear/white mirrors and get color changeable LEDs and maybe hook a dipswitch on the back?
Has anyone done something like this? Any links to a good DIY resource for project like this?
Cheers,
Schmidi
I've got an old Ness Microflower, a simple sound active moonflower fixture with a 250w halogen bulb. The thing just wont die, and the body is in good shape, but the mirror colors inside are quite dated (pre dichroic glass).
I was thinking about buying new colored mirror glass, and swapping out the halogen for a couple of large LEDs.
Or I could go clear/white mirrors and get color changeable LEDs and maybe hook a dipswitch on the back?
Has anyone done something like this? Any links to a good DIY resource for project like this?
Cheers,
Schmidi
发表时间 Sun 29 Jul 12 @ 1:20 pm
funkmasterfrank
Ive been servicing lighting effects since the 70s to today and my guess is it won't work properly... Why? With leds, like regular bulbs you need to have the right mangification lens so the light source is projected in a focused manner to create the effect. chances are that the glass used in the Ness effect are magnified but if they aren't I'm pretty sure the LED replacent will need some kind of different magnification to project properly. Finding the right magnified glass or plastic may be a challenge in itself. Knowing a bit about the Ness Microflower the lamp reflex its light onto a bunch of small mirrors and then the broken up light travels through a magnified glass. An led has more of a single directional beam so it would only reflect on one mirror at a time basically so it wouldn't produce the same effect. It would probably have one or more flashing beams of light depending on how many leds you place inside the fixture. The light would not be on fully like the original effect.
BTW - I am just saying this but I have never tried to convert an older fixture to newer technology.
BTW - I am just saying this but I have never tried to convert an older fixture to newer technology.
发表时间 Sun 29 Jul 12 @ 6:45 pm
Charlie Wilson
I wondered if this was possible when LED lights came out, I dont want to use the cheap lights when I have Abstarct Twister 4HP's.
Is it as simple as swapping the buld for an LED version? surly not
Is it as simple as swapping the buld for an LED version? surly not
发表时间 Mon 30 Jul 12 @ 12:38 pm
schmidi_0
Appreciate the perspective guys! Figured I'd need new mirrors, but you are right, there usually is an additional layer of magnification as the beam exits the fixture as well... I'll post if I manage anything decent!
发表时间 Mon 30 Jul 12 @ 9:51 pm
groovindj
Charlie Wilson wrote :
Is it as simple as swapping the lamp for an LED version?
It should be - but I think the reason it hasn't happened is that the manufacturers want us to buy their shiny new toys, not keep hold of our old lights and recycle them.
There's also the issue of size and shape. The new powerful LEDs are physically completely different to old halogen lamps.
发表时间 Tue 31 Jul 12 @ 4:26 am
PhantomDeejay
Optics are always optics!
For the type of effect you mention here (moonflower) you don't have to find a different lens for the effect to work. You DO have to find the correct distance that you must place the new LED lamp inside the housing.
Let me explain:
The light travels from the lamp to the mirrors and hit them with an angle. Then the light travels back from the mirror to the lens and exits from there.
In order for ANY effect to work correctly the center of all beams that leave the mirrors must hit the optical center of the lens.
On typical effects this is FIXED from the geometry of the housing. (The distance between the mirrors and the lens and the mirrors angle)
Therefore there's only ONE problem: You must "move" the new lamp so that the light hits the mirrors with the correct angle. This is challenging, but for a simple effect like a moonflower it should be relative easy to find the correct spot.
However you must pay attention to a couple more things:
A) You need a "frost" type LED lamp. Otherwise you won't have a solid beam to reflect on the mirrors.
B) LED lamps don't use the same electrical circuits with halogen lamps. You can try to use a 110V LED lamp that has all the electronics inside the housing of the lamp, but they are bigger in size and thus you may not be able to place it on the correct spot inside the effect housing, or it might prevent the reflection of the mirrors to come back to the lens (they may hit the lamp itself). It would be better to use a "simple" LED lamp but then you will need at least a transformer that must be placed somewhere inside the effect housing.
C) One of the "cool" things: If your effect has fans you can disable them! Halogen lamps produce a great amount of heat. LED lamps don't!
Anything is possible if you have the time (and knowledge) to experiment. If you want to do this just for fun, then yes you can try to use a LED lamp and do some modifications. In worst case you'll have to just restore everything to it's original state and use a halogen lamp.
If you just want to replace lamps and have your piece of equipment back and working on "zero" time then you should just change it's lamp with a new one and forget it...
PS: I would just clear or even re-paint the mirrors (there are some special color fluids for that) but I wouldn't "replace" them if I was not knowing what I'm doing. Remember that the mirrors have a "fixed" angle and that all mirrors center their beam to the optical center of the lens. If your light can't guide you somehow to find the correct angles then I would go further to un-glue and re-glue the mirrors. ;)
For the type of effect you mention here (moonflower) you don't have to find a different lens for the effect to work. You DO have to find the correct distance that you must place the new LED lamp inside the housing.
Let me explain:
The light travels from the lamp to the mirrors and hit them with an angle. Then the light travels back from the mirror to the lens and exits from there.
In order for ANY effect to work correctly the center of all beams that leave the mirrors must hit the optical center of the lens.
On typical effects this is FIXED from the geometry of the housing. (The distance between the mirrors and the lens and the mirrors angle)
Therefore there's only ONE problem: You must "move" the new lamp so that the light hits the mirrors with the correct angle. This is challenging, but for a simple effect like a moonflower it should be relative easy to find the correct spot.
However you must pay attention to a couple more things:
A) You need a "frost" type LED lamp. Otherwise you won't have a solid beam to reflect on the mirrors.
B) LED lamps don't use the same electrical circuits with halogen lamps. You can try to use a 110V LED lamp that has all the electronics inside the housing of the lamp, but they are bigger in size and thus you may not be able to place it on the correct spot inside the effect housing, or it might prevent the reflection of the mirrors to come back to the lens (they may hit the lamp itself). It would be better to use a "simple" LED lamp but then you will need at least a transformer that must be placed somewhere inside the effect housing.
C) One of the "cool" things: If your effect has fans you can disable them! Halogen lamps produce a great amount of heat. LED lamps don't!
Anything is possible if you have the time (and knowledge) to experiment. If you want to do this just for fun, then yes you can try to use a LED lamp and do some modifications. In worst case you'll have to just restore everything to it's original state and use a halogen lamp.
If you just want to replace lamps and have your piece of equipment back and working on "zero" time then you should just change it's lamp with a new one and forget it...
PS: I would just clear or even re-paint the mirrors (there are some special color fluids for that) but I wouldn't "replace" them if I was not knowing what I'm doing. Remember that the mirrors have a "fixed" angle and that all mirrors center their beam to the optical center of the lens. If your light can't guide you somehow to find the correct angles then I would go further to un-glue and re-glue the mirrors. ;)
发表时间 Tue 31 Jul 12 @ 5:19 am
ianmelville
The challenges I've come across so far are:
1. Mounting - the Halogen bulbs are all A1/231 Dichoric lamps so they clip into a holder. I've noticed that in all of the lights I've seen so far the holders seem to be pre-fabricated units screwed onto the chassis, so it probably wouldn't be too hard to make up something which would screw in it's place.
2. Focusing - the actual position of the light source is very different between LED's and Halogen lamps so the position for the bulb may need to be very different to get the same focus - luckily both the Obsession and the Scats' have variable focus, so I can compensate to some extent if this gives me major problems.
3. Reflection - the Halogen lamps have built in reflectors, whereas the LED's disperse light over an angle of about 165degrees! I haven't found a good solution to this problem yet. Anyone good at optics? Does anyone have any ideas?
4. Power - LED lamps are more sensitive to voltage than their Halogen equivalents and need smoothed DC voltage, not AC (otherwise they flicker at 50hz, which turns your nice constant light source into a strobe!) Converting to DC and smoothing is easy with a 4,700uf cap and a full bridge recitifier. But I've got a set of 10w bulbs which need 11.5v, and a set of 20w which need between 12.5v and 14.5v. The Obsession has a 12v transformer which outputs about 12.45v DC after rectification, so I need a 1ohm resistor to be safe for the 10w LED, or a 0.5ohm resistor for the 20w LED. The problems come with the Scat's as they use lighting transformers (which are Switch mode PSU's) to provide 11.5v of regulated power. The voltage is ideal, but believe it or not the problem is the LACK of load on them - I believe they'll actually self destruct if I don't put at least about 60w of load on them. I could load them down with a resistive load, but whats the point of burning 50w in pure heat for no reason? The easiest option is probably to swap the PSU's out for traditional 20va or 50va transformers or to buy PSU's designed for LED's - but these are expensive (~ £20).
5. Brightness - so far I can't find a way of determining how bright a 100w Halogen bulb actually is to guage what kind of LED I'd need to replace it. The new American DJ TriLED lights have 3 x 3w LED's in them which they reckon is the equivalent of a 100w Halogen bulb, but I've seen side by side comparisons of their Halogen and LED lights and I think they're lying! I've also seem claims that a 20w LED is about the equivalent of a 250w Halogen fixture, but again I'm sceptical. From the specs on the LED's I have, a 10w LED puts out about 650lumens, and a 20w LED puts out about 1000lumens. Does anyone know what a Halogen lamp puts out?
1. Mounting - the Halogen bulbs are all A1/231 Dichoric lamps so they clip into a holder. I've noticed that in all of the lights I've seen so far the holders seem to be pre-fabricated units screwed onto the chassis, so it probably wouldn't be too hard to make up something which would screw in it's place.
2. Focusing - the actual position of the light source is very different between LED's and Halogen lamps so the position for the bulb may need to be very different to get the same focus - luckily both the Obsession and the Scats' have variable focus, so I can compensate to some extent if this gives me major problems.
3. Reflection - the Halogen lamps have built in reflectors, whereas the LED's disperse light over an angle of about 165degrees! I haven't found a good solution to this problem yet. Anyone good at optics? Does anyone have any ideas?
4. Power - LED lamps are more sensitive to voltage than their Halogen equivalents and need smoothed DC voltage, not AC (otherwise they flicker at 50hz, which turns your nice constant light source into a strobe!) Converting to DC and smoothing is easy with a 4,700uf cap and a full bridge recitifier. But I've got a set of 10w bulbs which need 11.5v, and a set of 20w which need between 12.5v and 14.5v. The Obsession has a 12v transformer which outputs about 12.45v DC after rectification, so I need a 1ohm resistor to be safe for the 10w LED, or a 0.5ohm resistor for the 20w LED. The problems come with the Scat's as they use lighting transformers (which are Switch mode PSU's) to provide 11.5v of regulated power. The voltage is ideal, but believe it or not the problem is the LACK of load on them - I believe they'll actually self destruct if I don't put at least about 60w of load on them. I could load them down with a resistive load, but whats the point of burning 50w in pure heat for no reason? The easiest option is probably to swap the PSU's out for traditional 20va or 50va transformers or to buy PSU's designed for LED's - but these are expensive (~ £20).
5. Brightness - so far I can't find a way of determining how bright a 100w Halogen bulb actually is to guage what kind of LED I'd need to replace it. The new American DJ TriLED lights have 3 x 3w LED's in them which they reckon is the equivalent of a 100w Halogen bulb, but I've seen side by side comparisons of their Halogen and LED lights and I think they're lying! I've also seem claims that a 20w LED is about the equivalent of a 250w Halogen fixture, but again I'm sceptical. From the specs on the LED's I have, a 10w LED puts out about 650lumens, and a 20w LED puts out about 1000lumens. Does anyone know what a Halogen lamp puts out?
发表时间 Tue 31 Jul 12 @ 7:03 am
djsherz
There's some quite sophisticated circuitry involved in driving the larger (10watt+) LEDS reliably. It's not as simple as just providing a regulated DC supply voltage, the current has to be limited as well. A series resistor won't do the job either, because the resistance of the LED varies according to operating temperature. Consequently, most fixtures use a 12 or 24 volt switched mode supply for stable power, which in turn drives a PCB which regulates the voltage and constantly adjusts the current drive to the LED.
Cooling is another thing to consider - the high brightness diodes are very sensitive in this respect - if they overheat they either burn out or become irreversably dimmed - typically they are mounted directly to a fan-cooled heatsink.
Honestly, for what it would cost for the diode, PSU, driver board, heatsink and cooling, plus the manhours of modifying your fixture, you'd be financially better off just buying some new LED effects. If on the other hand you've got a junk box of parts knocking around, it would make an interesting project!
Cooling is another thing to consider - the high brightness diodes are very sensitive in this respect - if they overheat they either burn out or become irreversably dimmed - typically they are mounted directly to a fan-cooled heatsink.
Honestly, for what it would cost for the diode, PSU, driver board, heatsink and cooling, plus the manhours of modifying your fixture, you'd be financially better off just buying some new LED effects. If on the other hand you've got a junk box of parts knocking around, it would make an interesting project!
发表时间 Tue 31 Jul 12 @ 7:17 am